“Azerbaijan Has All the Elements of a Dictatorship” 

Frank Schwabe, a leading German member of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, has openly challenged the legitimacy of Azerbaijan’s authoritarian rule in an exclusive interview with Caspian Watch.

In a conversation with Azerbaijani journalist and Caspian Watch founder Abid Gafarov, Schwabe said that Azerbaijan no longer demonstrates the basic characteristics of a democracy and that its current political system contains “all the elements of a dictatorship.”

He warned that Azerbaijan’s continued repression of journalists, opposition leaders, civil society activists and human rights defenders puts the country’s membership in the Council of Europe in serious danger. Schwabe also underlined that the Council of Europe accepted the Azerbaijani people and the Azerbaijani state — not the ruling family.

The interview is a powerful message both to Ilham Aliyev’s government and to the Azerbaijani people: Europe cannot remain silent while a member state acts against the very values on which the Council of Europe was founded.

The full interview is presented below.

Abid Gafarov: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I am Abid Gafarov, a journalist from Azerbaijan and the founder of Caspian Watch. Today we have the honor to speak with Mr. Frank Schwabe, a member of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe from Germany.

Abid Gafarov: Mr. Schwabe, I would like to thank you for taking the time to speak with us. I would also like to thank you and your colleagues for the great work you are doing to support democracy and human rights in Azerbaijan. Thank you for your time.

Frank Schwabe: Thank you.

Abid Gafarov: First question: if a government puts journalists in prison, arrests opposition leaders, destroys civil society, and uses courts against its critics, can Europe still treat this government as a normal partner? Or is it time to stop giving legitimacy to Aliyev?

Frank Schwabe: You know, I will speak in the Parliamentary Assembly about it as well. For sure, whether you like it or not, the precondition for being a member of the Council of Europe is that you are a democracy. If you have to describe what democracy is, and if you compare it with a dictatorship, you unfortunately find all the elements of a dictatorship in Azerbaijan.

Frank Schwabe: We are in a very difficult world, so we even have to cooperate with dictatorships. But not in the Council of Europe. The Council of Europe is built on values to support the people. It is not because of us, it is not because of me. I did not have the idea to found this organization. It was an organization, an idea, to support people in the member countries.

Frank Schwabe: If you are committed to democracy, the rule of law and human rights, you are very welcome. If you work totally against it, it is a problematic thing, and we have to discuss the membership in this organization.

Abid Gafarov: Thank you. For many years, the Aliyev regime has ignored European resolutions, ignored the European Court of Human Rights, and continued repression. What else must this regime do before Europe accepts that polite dialogue does not work with a dictator? Because it is not working.

Frank Schwabe: Europe is not just one thing. We have the European Union, we have the Council of Europe, and the Council of Europe has its procedures. As long as a country cooperates, it is a welcome member of this organization. And even when it does not make everything perfect, we are not perfect in a lot of member countries. Democracy is not perfect; the rule of law and even the human rights situation are not perfect.

Frank Schwabe: But unfortunately, in Azerbaijan, all the elements are there to break all the rules and to act against all the values here. Because of this, we sanctioned the delegation. We have no members from the Parliament of Azerbaijan here, and for sure the whole membership of Azerbaijan is under question.

Frank Schwabe: No one has said that Azerbaijan does not want to be a member of the Council of Europe anymore. I assume it wants to be a member; if not, it could already take action. But for sure, the membership is in danger. This is for sure.

Abid Gafarov: A short question: should the people who help Aliyev’s repression — officials, judges, prosecutors, police commanders and prison authorities — personally face European sanctions, travel bans and asset freezes?

Frank Schwabe: There are opportunities to do so. For sure, we are encouraging the European Union to use the possibilities to sanction those who commit serious human rights violations in the member countries. We do it with other countries as well.

Frank Schwabe: And for sure, I ask the European Union to look into specific cases in Azerbaijan as well, because I think this is the only language the authorities — and the authoritarian regime, I have to say — understand.

Abid Gafarov: Especially considering that many members of European parliaments are being declared persona non grata and banned from entering Azerbaijan, especially for monitoring human rights breaches, why not respond in kind to the dictatorship?

Frank Schwabe: At the end, we want to speak with each other. I go to some countries, like China, to speak with the authorities there, but they are not members of this club. You can be in the United Nations even when you break all the rules, but in the Council of Europe you cannot be.

Frank Schwabe: Your question is interesting. I want to make this possible, but it does not automatically mean that you can remain a member of such a distinguished international organization as the Council of Europe while acting against its values.

Abid Gafarov: What is your direct message to Ilham Aliyev and to the Azerbaijani people watching this interview? Is the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, or the Council of Europe, going to stand with the people against dictatorship? Or will it continue to choose gas, business and stability over human rights and human freedom?

Frank Schwabe: I would not say it is choosing those things over human rights. You know, the world is not easy. Around the world, even in the current conflict around the Strait of Hormuz, where oil comes from, there are some dictatorships involved. But again, this does not mean that we do not have to speak very openly about the situation in the country.

Frank Schwabe: This is the Council of Europe. If you want to become a member of this family of democracies, it is not just our right, it is our obligation to criticize the situation in the country for the good of the people — not for the good of governments or dictators, and not so that Mr. Aliyev, his family and his friends have a lot of money. This is not the aim of this organization.

Frank Schwabe: We want democracy. If we see good signs in this direction, even with some problems, you are welcome as a member of this organization. If you act against it, you undermine the credibility of this organization and, in the end, harm the people in other countries as well. You cannot remain here and then you have to face the consequences.

Frank Schwabe: In terms of continuing dialogue with the Azerbaijani people, you are right: when Azerbaijan entered the Council of Europe, the Council accepted the people of Azerbaijan and the state — not the ruling family.

Abid Gafarov: How do you think the Russian precedent could work for the Azerbaijani people? I mean inviting the opposition to have representation in PACE and continuing the democratic dialogue, in order to ensure that the Azerbaijani people have the right to democratic dialogue.

Frank Schwabe: You know, we have a different situation. Russia and Belarus are not members of this organization; Azerbaijan is officially still a member and part of the organization where it cooperates. The situation is different, but I am in favor of having a permanent dialogue.

Frank Schwabe: Strasbourg is already a platform for a lot of human rights defenders and opposition politicians from Azerbaijan who cannot stay in Azerbaijan anymore. Even some who still stay there come here and use this platform. For sure, we can improve this cooperation and this work. In which way, we have to think about it.

Frank Schwabe: But again, it is a little bit different from the situation of Russia and Belarus. If Azerbaijan were no longer a member of the organization, we could speak about a kind of institutionalization. For now, I would say that we need a permanent exchange.

Abid Gafarov: Especially now, when we have a media blackout — all independent media are being shut down and journalists are being arrested. We have about 35 journalists in prison. There are also arrests against political parties and NGOs. Even international media groups have been expelled from Azerbaijan. People are being arrested, and the number of political prisoners is approaching 400. In this situation, do you think it is time to call the Azerbaijani regime a dictatorship?

Frank Schwabe: I think you just have to look at the characteristics of democracy and the opposite situation. Democracy means free media. It means the free work of the opposition. It means the possibility to change the majority through elections. It means not having political prisoners. All these are characteristics of democracy.

Frank Schwabe: For sure, there are none of these characteristics in Azerbaijan today. Because of this, I cannot say that you are not right when you describe the situation in this way.

Abid Gafarov: Thank you very much, Mr. Schwabe, for your time. Thank you very much. And again, I would like to thank you and your colleagues for doing a great job in supporting democracy for Azerbaijan and for the Azerbaijani people.

Frank Schwabe: Thank you.